Kawasaki Sportsbike Riders Club - Australia - Online Forum

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:44 pm**

Blurr wrote:
Jonno wrote:isn't PI or any track about entry speed then most importantly exit speed, isnt this where a rider can do the best in setting the whole corner up?

HP has nothing to do with it IMO, otherwise my 12R would eat yas all FFS It use to out drag any litre bike and even the 14 not being a true Ninja with an R

IMO it is about rider overall

So we're you faster on your 6r or 10r.

Same rider on a 600 or 1000, which one will produce a faster lap time?

Once again, the question is not will a 1000 do a faster lap time. No one I don't think has debated that. What the original discussion stemmed from was if Phillip Island is a HP track or a corner speed track. Even comparing KC on his R1 and his Arsehix isn't really accurate, as both have varying levels of modifications. Potentially the best test would be of two stock standard bikes with suspension set as best can be and some sticky tyres, with the same rider. But, once again, obtaining that is difficult.

However, even looking at KC on his R1 and Arsehix, the times are still about what was it... from memory without looking back at the post about 2.7% difference. Considering the 400cc and at a guestimate, 50hp advantage to the R1, it's not a large gap. Which once again, tells me that (I've avoided using this, but, as it's obviously not sinking in, I will use a real experience to attempt to emphasise it.) when Kevin Curtain told me in the pits at the WSBK in 1996, during some advice he was offering me to improve my times, that Phillip Island was about corner speed and not HP, that he might be right. He's only won a small amount of Australian Championships and was useless on the world stage

, so maybe he's wrong ..... but I doubt it!

Gavin Cosway was also present during that conversation and provided he hasn't pickled his brain yet, would bear witness to it. He was also in support of what Kevin was Telling me. I don't take everything people say as gospel, but, he did win the Australian SS championship that year, riding the exact same bike as mine. ( mind you, he was breaking lap records and I was breaking bikes and bones...

)

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:55 pm**

Wayne Garnder, and Mick Doohan both told me it was a HP track.

so you've been overruled Marty

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:22 pm**

So,

What you are saying is, PI is a corner speed track, but the bikes with the best corner speed cant produce a better laptime because the bikes with more Horspower are faster?

hmmm

Now it makes sense

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:34 pm**

Wattie wrote:Wayne Garnder, and Mick Doohan both told me it was a HP track.

so you've been overruled Marty

Liar liar. I know this because in 02 I had dinner with Wayne and a mate of mine who is good buddies with him. He disagrees with Blurr too!

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:51 am**

Is someone editing Jonno's last post right now? It shows on the new posts but won't show in here? You been naughty Jonno???

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:54 am**

Strika wrote:Is someone editing Jonno's last post right now? It shows on the new posts but won't show in here? You been naughty Jonno???

Nope....Just fine tuning it

Blurr wrote: So we're you faster on your 6r or 10r.

Same rider on a 600 or 1000, which one will produce a faster lap time?

Cant really say as I haven't ridden either to their limits only at mine making up for my lack of cornering ability with HP on the straight bits

It felt faster on the 10 purely because of confidence on the day and a better bike.

Which bike will produce a faster lap time? obviously as stated above that has to be the 10 but that is not the question.... does HP come into it, yes and no, I would have expected a greater gap between these different capacity bikes based on HP.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:05 pm**

Wattie wrote:So,

What you are saying is, PI is a corner speed track, but the bikes with the best corner speed cant produce a better laptime because the bikes with more Horspower are faster?

hmmm

Now it makes sense

Yep, thats pretty close i reckon....
To quote someone... the 6 turns on a dime, but u cant ride it like a superbike, as it doest have the power to back up its turn speed!!!! enough said

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:41 pm**

MickLC wrote:I was always under the impression that "horsepower" tracks are like the paperclip where you've got a lot of tight corners joined together by long straights, so you're doing a lot of point-and-squirt and the bigger horsepower bikes have more of an acceleration/top speed advantage than they do at a cornerspeed track like PI where you're on the side of the tyre more and the advantage isn't as great.

Mate don't disagree that the paperclip may be a Hp track. Never been but what you are saying makes sense.

However what we seem have lost in all this is the original question. " is PI more suited to a 1000 or 600?".

No one has debated whether the 600 has faster mid corner speed at PI or any other track however it seems that all evidence points to the 1000 being able to put down it power in a far greater percentage of that track compared to Wp or Ec thus making it a track that lends itself to the higher Hp bikes being able to gap the smaller cc bikes by a big margin compared to other tracks. Thus being a Hp track as such.

Tighter tracks making the bigger bikes stop, turn and change direction allows the more agile ( however not that much more agile these days ) 600's nullify there lack of power.

3-4 secs is a bloody larger gap when you compare tighter tracks only having a 0.5 to 1 sec gap when they arent that much shorter.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:55 pm**

Yep..

Q/R dont kno laps times..
Have ridin it. its 4 drag strips, 2 longish ones, 2 shorter ones, so if ur getting it down, than H/P prob?? U need fukin good brakes tho, turn 3, u arrive with a lot of speed, and that sand trap dont look so very big

good exit speed seems to be the go there.
And champions are doing the 1st ride day this weekend, on the new relayed track, hope its done right, it is a good track to ride, reguardless of what people say about it, i enjoyed it anyway, so am going back.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:10 pm**

I reckin that only a data logger would sort this argument out, not lap times.

My guess is that through the high speed turns that both the bikes would be the same and there are 4 of those high speed corners at PI (plus maybe southern loop) and they make up a fair amount of distance on the track.

The thing is that, from my understanding, having walked the Broadford track with Krusty, that a different line is taken by the 1000cc bikes in tight corners compared to the 600s. The 1000s square the tight corners off and get the bikes upright and on the rear tyre to take advantage of the extra torque and reduce wheel spin out of the corners. So through honda, MG and poss Siberia, the 600's corner speed might be higher but really why would you want to sacrifice the advantage of the 1000 just to maintain the corner speed.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:14 pm**

born green wrote:Yep..
And champions are doing the 1st ride day this weekend, on the new relayed track, hope its done right, .

I was booked in but it's cancelled cause they tested the track out and it broke up so no events till january.

Isn't it just dumb though....doing a crap resurface is a waste of time.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:17 pm**

MadKaw™ wrote:Marty, you would have smashed the 2005 superstock bikes on your 95 model..

Lap times from the 2005 Aus superstock championship at P.I.

1 64 C Dale BROADFOOT (NSW) / Onlike Motorcycles Albury Honda CBR 600 6 10:34.626 1:44.257 5
2 21 C Darren EDWARDS (QLD) Yamaha R6 600 6 10:40.948 6.322 1:44.638 5
3 11 C Chris CASELLA (VIC) / Sopranos Bar & Resturant Yamaha R6 600 6 10:43.172 8.546 1:45.638 5
4 12 C Danny HIGGINS (VIC) / Vern Graham Yamaha Yamaha R6 600 6 10:43.328 8.702 1:45.309 5
5 15 C Daniel FIGUEIREDO (QLD) / Fishermans Wharf Racing Suzuki GSXR 600 6 10:43.365 8.739 1:45.528 6
6 4 C Aaron PHILLIPS (VIC) / First Permanent Home Loans Yamaha R6 600 6 10:47.597 12.971 1:45.723 6
7 66 C Dean BONTHORNE (VIC) / http://www.deano66com Suzuki GSXR 600 6 10:49.910 15.284 1:46.133 6
8 38 C Neil WEBSTER (VIC) / Ewington Homes / Madaz Kawasaki ZXR 600 6 10:53.934 19.308 1:46.477 6
9 9 C Shane INGRAM (VIC) Yamaha R6 600 6 10:55.150 20.524 1:47.397 4
10 25 C Ryan TAYLOR (VIC) Yamaha R6 600 6 10:55.509 20.883 1:47.058 3

and been top 15 in Supersport in 2005, and in some good company too

1 25 A Joshua BROOKES (VIC) / Joe Rocket Honda Honda CBR 600 8 13:12.926 1:38.036 3
2 1 A Adam FERGUSSON (VIC) / Joe Rocket Honda Honda CBR 600 8 13:18.743 5.817 1:38.824 2
3 45 A Jason O'HALLORAN (VIC) / Rocket Racing Honda CBR 600 8 13:18.903 5.977 1:38.777 2
4 21 A Joshua WATERS (VIC) / Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX6R 600 8 13:23.408 10.482 1:38.994 8
5 8 A Mark AITCHISON (NSW) / Fraser Motorcycle Yamaha Team Yamaha R6 600 8 13:23.463 10.537 1:39.134 8
6 17 A Jordan COOTE (VIC) / Yamaha GYTR / Valter Moto Yamaha R6 600 8 13:24.193 11.267 1:39.320 4
7 42 A Jeremy CROWE (NSW) / Rapid Bikes Magazine Honda CBR 600 8 13:24.891 11.965 1:39.224 5
8 68 A Caleb STALDER (NSW) / John Holland Honda CBR 600 8 13:33.600 20.674 1:40.193 4
9 78 B Jarradd CURRAN (NSW) / MSC Products Yamaha R6 600 8 13:38.499 25.573 1:40.686 4
10 67 A Bryan STARING (WA) / Allect Racing Honda CBR 600 8 13:38.865 25.939 1:41.150 3
11 99 A Mark STANLEY (NSW) / Lismore Motorcycles Yamaha R6 600 8 13:39.474 26.548 1:40.881 6
12 77 A Hayden FITZGERALD (NZ) / Bernard Racing Suzuki GSXR 600 8 13:46.409 33.483 1:41.808 4
13 51 A Dustin GOLDSMITH (NSW) Honda CBR 600 8 13:47.959 35.033 1:41.904 6
14 87 B Gareth JONES (QLD) / Gold Coast Yamaha Yamaha YZF R6 600 8 13:51.503 38.577 1:42.548 6
15 52 B Alex CUDLIN (NSW) Yamaha R6 600 8 13:51.944 39.018 1:42.693 7
16 23 A Christopher SEATON (VIC) Kawasaki ZX6R 600 8 13:52.941 40.015 1:42.611 8

Wow... there's something interesting...... 6 seconds a lap difference between SS and SSTK. I guess tyres are probably the major difference, as I understand the SSTK tyres were pretty average back then.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:26 pm**

MadKaw™ wrote:and from the last round (can't get superstock from 10 years ago)..

1000 prostock - P.I. -(on the weekend)

1 3 A Pat MEDCALF (VIC) / Yamaha Racing Team Yamaha YZF-R1 9 14:49.226 1:37.468 4

600 superstock - P.I. (on the weekend)

1 25 D Daniel FALZON (SA) / Yamaha Pitmans / Jon Daniels Racing Yamaha YZF-R6 8 13:35.240 1:40.738 2

3.3 seconds difference..
But the disclaimer on this is that superstock 600 is for C and D graders only... 1000cc prostock is all grades and has a couple of "factory" teams in there..

This is probably the closest in terms of 600 vs 1000, with both bikes being SStk bikes. OK, the 600 guys are all C and D graders, but, even if you don't make allowances for that and pretend that the fastest 600 C grader is as capable a rider as the top A grader on the 1000, there is only 3.5 seconds approx. That's about 4% difference in laptimes. I just still have difficulty understanding why people think this is a large gap when comparing a bike which is almost double the capacity and with 60+hp power advantage.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:44 pm**

Strika wrote:
MadKaw™ wrote:and from the last round (can't get superstock from 10 years ago)..

1000 prostock - P.I. -(on the weekend)

1 3 A Pat MEDCALF (VIC) / Yamaha Racing Team Yamaha YZF-R1 9 14:49.226 1:37.468 4

600 superstock - P.I. (on the weekend)

1 25 D Daniel FALZON (SA) / Yamaha Pitmans / Jon Daniels Racing Yamaha YZF-R6 8 13:35.240 1:40.738 2

3.3 seconds difference..
But the disclaimer on this is that superstock 600 is for C and D graders only... 1000cc prostock is all grades and has a couple of "factory" teams in there..
This is probably the closest in terms of 600 vs 1000, with both bikes being SStk bikes. OK, the 600 guys are all C and D graders, but, even if you don't make allowances for that and pretend that the fastest 600 C grader is as capable a rider as the top A grader on the 1000, there is only 3.5 seconds approx. That's about 4% difference in laptimes. I just still have difficulty understanding why people think this is a large gap when comparing a bike which is almost double the capacity and with 60+hp power advantage.

not quite 60HP mate.

here is the dyno runs from an FX round.

http://www.formula-xtreme.com.au/xtreme ... enDocument

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:54 pm**

Sorry Wattie.. typo.... I've quoted 50hp approx on all my other posts and am happy to stick by that. It doesn't make much difference to my point. How come you havn't locked this yet? I thought this was a horrible angry argument?

Someone's surely got to start calling names soon FFS!!!

Kawasaki Sportsbike Riders Club - Australia - Online Forum

600cc vs 1000cc lap times

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600cc vs 1000cc lap times

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Re: 600cc vs 1000cc lap times

Re: 600cc vs 1000cc lap times

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